Ok, so this is probably not what the folks advocating ‘Christian Domestic Discipline’ , as discussed over at feministing, have in mind…
Here’s what the CDD have to say about it:
- ‘A Christian Domestic Discipline marriage is one that is set up according to Biblical standards; that is, the husband is the authority in the household. The wife is submissive to her husband as is fit in the Lord and her husband loves her as himself. He has the ultimate authority in his household, but it is tempered with the knowledge that he must answer to God for his actions and decisions. He has the authority to spank his wife for punishment, but in real CDD marriages this is taken very seriously and usually happens only rarely. CDD is so much more than just spanking. It is the husband loving the wife enough to guide and teach her, and the wife loving the husband enough to follow his leadership. A Christian marriage embodies true romance and a Christian man a true hero.’
For those interested, this publication will be informative, no doubt: chapters include ‘How much is Enough’, and ‘Uncooperative wife’.
Perhaps you’d rather peruse this, an excerpt from which reminds us:
’Just as a parent would never stop to ask permission to chastise his child, a husband should not have to obtain consent to discipline his wife; however, our legal system has put him in the position of having to do so… our culture is turned upside down in so many other things’
There is in fact a chapter on ‘the meaning of consent’, which I’d love to read. Interesting issues about autonomy raised: one might hold that women who choose this do so autonomously, and so all’s well. Indeed, there’s a blog where one woman writes of her being ‘disciplined’, on which she writes:
‘ My submission is quite voluntary. I have had a few that said they don’t know why women need it. Well I think I could have been single and led my life just fine but in order to be a couple someone has to be in charge and someone has to follow.’
Of course, voluntary does not mean autonomous. And if those involved - including these women - hold that women’s status is like that of children, then interesting issues about consent raised: there are (many) circumstances under which children’s consent is not valid.
It puts me in mind of Hill’s (1985) article, ‘Servility and self-respect’, in which he claims that certain deferential and servile behaviours involve a misunderstanding of one’s agential status, or a failure to care properly about it…
Yikes. Looks like CDD is also the place to go for enormous, blousy, and modest– yet crotchless– undergarments. And for herbal remedies for bruising.
I think your image says it all. Romantic spanking fiction? This is just a subset of people with fetishes that they’ve draped in theology for justification.
In all my time in Christian conservative circles (the first 24 years of my life), I’ve never seen anything like this. “Aftercare lotion”? Ugh.
Weird huh I have posted on the subject myself.
i love to be spanked so id be bad all the time
my hubby needs to read this
This may be similar to takeninhand.com but at least the guys at TiH dont attempt to justify and rationalise is with religion.
Interesting posts though… Wondering if people are reverting to what they see as traditional ‘in house’ roles?
regards
Linda
I try to tell my husband, I’m spiraling out of control and need him to help me straighten out. I feel safe in his arms, but as soon as I’m out of his arms, I loose the will to change. I told him I need to be over his lap. He said,”we don’t want to go there: controlling”
Many women prefer to be in a marriage or romantic relationship where the man is clearly the dominant partner. I always knew I wanted a man who was dominant in the bedroom, but more recently I came to realize that I want a man whose leadership and dominance I could trust outside the bedroom as well.
That requires a large degree of strength, love, integrity, and masculine confidence on the man’s part. He has to be willing to put the time and energy and thoughtfulness into the relationship, in order to be able to take the lead in a way that will make both partners happy. And it’s not just about spanking, because that is not the only means by which a dominant man may physically enforce his wife’s obedience. It may be the most common, but if he’s creative then he can find a lot of other ways to use his superior male strength to reinforce his dominance.
The Taken In Hand website and forum is the best place around for discussing the dynamics of a male-dominated marriage: http://www.takeninhand.com
As a previous comment said, the Taken In Hand viewpoint is not religious at all; rather it’s about the psychological dynamics of masculine dominance and feminine surrender.
One other difference is that many women at the Taken In Hand website might describe themselves as feisty or resistant, instead of compliant. They want their man to take charge, but they will still put up some resistance to that, from time to time. So it becomes part of his job to overcome that resistance, to actively conquer her and control her, and subjugate her to his will. It might not be everyone’s cup of tea, but if you read through the postings there, by many contributors, it’s clear that there are a lot of men and women who really enjoy this kind of relationship.
I highly recommend TIH, especially to the last woman who posted, “Searching For Answers” - try reading the essays there, and if you find it appealing then you might share it with your husband. There is nothing at all wrong with the man being “controlling” and dominating, provided that that is also what his wife wants. And it can make for a very passionate and romantic marriage, one that keeps the fires of Eros burning for a long time. (It also tends to cut down on silly squabbles and petty power struggles, if the man is clearly acknowledged as the boss.)
Feminism is supposed to be all about women being free to make their own choices, right? Well, many women would freely choose a dominant man for their husband; but when we do, then the feminists will often denounce us for that choice, and try to impose their own values on us. Pretty ironic, that.
I have been married for 25 years and spanked since the begginning ( we agreed this was proper before the weddding),CDD was not popular then and we are not very religeous, it just seemed right and natural. I want him to be in charge and feel like a man,but I am very intelligent and have a strong will so without this I might not have learned to be submissive. We have a gret marriage/family. Seems pretty normal and I think in the old days was the norm. I do wish I had friends who could admit to it to it and we could talk openly.(without seeking special interest groups).Seems like today a good ,obedient, lovingly disciplined wife is a dirty little secret adn we can only talk about it online. In the old days it was a matter of fact and families were more intact. Who says women are happier now that we work long hours and are out of touch with our subbmissive sides? What women isn’t more attracted to a dominant,carin,attentive man than a weak,preoccupied one?
excuse the typos-late and tired.
Is this post still getting responses? Wow. I may as well throw in my two cents worth, since I seem to be halfway between the feminist philosophers and the CDD people on this one.
I am a heterosexual woman, and what BDSM people call a “switch”. That means I switch between the dominant role and the submissive role, depending on partner and/or mood. I don’t think it’s automatically bad for women to take on submissive sexual roles. (None of the feminist philosophers have said that it’s bad, but I get the feeling that anything smacking of BDSM is getting a strong unreflective “eww” response from stoat. Which is understandable–real sexual exploitation is genuinely gross–but it’s also possible for feelings of disgust to obscure subtleties.)
So first: CDD women are feeling urges to be sexually submissive, and that’s common (for men and women), understandable, and OK in my book. (I am genuinely not sure if the owners of this blog would agree with me.) But second: It is *not OK* to claim that all women should be submissive just because you are. (I, for one, would be utterly miserable if I were dominated by a man 24/7.) And the fact that you have a particular kink does not in any way justify the societal oppression of women, which is real and not just some fun bedroom game.
Third thought, for Mary: Don’t be knocking submissive men. Like submissive women, submissive men can be strong, competent, and smart. Lots of women (including myself) are attracted to submissive men, but not because they are weak or preoccupied. The opposite of “dominant” is not “pathetic”.
Last thought: There’s an SM feminist blog that may be of interest (at least to those of you who are not so wigged out by the idea of eroticizing dominance and submission that you want to wash your brains out immediately). I’m not affiliated with it; I just think it’s a good resource.
Back to lurking. (Btw, I appreciate and admire the feminist philosophers; I usually just don’t have a ton to add to your posts.)
Hi P. Burke,
This post brings a lot visitors to our site, perhaps not all of them looking for feminist philosophers initially - i think that’s why the comments keep coming in!
I’m glad the ongoing stream prompted you to comment.
I certainly didn’t intend to give off an unreflective ‘eww’ about BDSM. What I find more troubling are the two aspects you raise: i) being submissive in many aspects of a relationship (though even still, it might suit some, and I genuinely haven’t got a settled view on what I think to such cases…other than ‘not for me’!), and ii) propounding submissiveness for all women.
thanks for the link - will check it out.
and thanks for the comment! glad you like the site :)
I think it’s important to make very clear what these doctrines imply in their version of ’submissive’. Leaving aside the bedroom antics (as much as that’s ever possible) the quoted passages in the original post are implying subjugation, and the idea that a woman’s place is necessarily subordinate to that of a man. This is not the same as allowing one partner in a relationship to take the lead more than the other- more usually the male- which happens in every relationship. Even between friends of the same sex its usual for one person to be more ‘dominant’. I think its perfectly alright to be content to leave your man more ‘in charge’, what’s important is to know that’s not a god-given or naturally deserved role and that the balance of power is always open to negotiation.
Those woman who boast that their husband ‘would do anything for me’ and those men who say their wives “do as they’re told”- it’s all of a piece. A power with a romantic ring but is degrading and vulgar in practice. Enough of the matrimonial blackmail- let’s fight it out like gentlemen. (oops. apologies for long post!)
Stoat, thank you for the clarification; it sounds like we’re basically in agreement. I just sometimes worry that submissive women will think feminism is incompatible with their felt experience, and will find sexist and/or dangerous ways to go about fulfilling their preferences as a result. So you could take the previous comment as more of a clarificatory note than an objection. (Really, I guess I’m hoping that some of the CDD women who stop by will go read the SM feminists blog and be turned on to feminism.)
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Erm, thanks Ray Nwamb for saying our website is fantastic. I’ll be sure to check our your discounts for sheer transparent lingerie. (Especially for those moments when getting spanked by my wife.)
my husband and i love this. it does help me to focus mentally and spiritually. it helps him to know his role in my life. i am an intelligent entrepeneur with an mba.
My wife and I are a DD couple. I’m a Dominant, she’s a submissive. We met years ago on a spanking kink discussion forum. I spank her for discipline, for fun, for stress relief, (hers) for foreplay, and other reasons that aren’t coming to me off the top of my head. That is how much we are into spanking.
What some feminists fail to understand about DD relationships like ours, is that we not only chose this, but we both want this, and actively sought it out. She has made a choice to live as she desires to live, and it does not affect anyone outside of our marriage. We are both happy with it. But because it is what we want and how we live, doesn’t in any way mean that we think anyone else should have to live the same way. We want everyone to live as they want to live, not as they are told they should want to live.
Because I expect my wife to submit to me, does not mean at all that I expect or even imply that all women should submit to men. It’s what we want - it’s what we do. To insist that she should live any other way then how she should choose is I think… well, oppressive.
But this CDD crap makes me sick to my stomach. I could never spank a woman without consent. And by consent, I mean freely given, as an expressed desire - not by coercion. This CDD is the same thing that has always ever been wrong with religion - saying you must live a certain way because it’s, not how you want to live, but, how ‘God’ wants you to live.
Now, you can believe whatever you like about God, and that’s fine, as long as your beliefs are tolerant of those who believe otherwise. So if a woman believes this and enters into such a relationship freely, then good for her. I can tell her how naive I believe her to be, but she doesn’t have to change her lifestyle because I disagree with her reasons…
But personally, I don’t see a difference between bullying someone into something against their will with threats of physical violence, and doing it with threats of eternal damnation and holy wrath. (should the target actually believe in and fear such things) I can only feel sorry for women who enter into a DD relationship when they DON’T want to, but are coerced into it because they are made to believe God wants it of them.
PS. Just fyi - if anyone claims to KNOW what God thinks or wants, about ANYTHING, they want you to buy something. (or has a worse motivation)
Amazing, truth really is stranger then fiction!! Of course all my muslim clients will be happy to know that Christians beat their women too!!
I don’t understand half, or more than half, of the comments here. Am I so different after all? I don’t understand this “dominant-submissive” compass. Spanking can be very exciting with a person who is turned on by it. It’s foreplay but exciting enough in itself–who needs post-spanking coition to improve it? Nothing dominant or submissive about it, which is why I enjoy both spanking and being spanked. We don’t mess around with permanent roles and we won’t have any truck with “being told” what to do. If she acted in a permanent way like “a dom” I’d divorce her.
At first, it was not so enjoyable as my wife was too worried about hurting me and didn’t hit me hard enough, but even the first time (caught on tape), her eyes got bright and she flushed and grinned as she hit me harder as I told her to do. For her part, she too love to see my face on the telly monitor when she’s being spanked. She has a truly gorgeous bottom, plump, wide-hipped, thin-waisted, dimpled above. I love to spank it.
Since there’s a few comments here thought I’d leave my own tuppence-worth.
My girlfriend and I practise Domestic Discipline with myself as Head-of-Household. Lesbian DD relationships seem to be a tiny minority of all DD relationships, and almost the only reference you can find on the web is pornographic images clearly aimed at men who like to combine their dominatrix fetishes with their lesbian voyeurism! My partner asked me a while back how I lined up spanking her with my feminism (she isn’t feminist) and really there was little to say - with us both being female I don’t really have issues with how we distribute our respective power. I personally feel uncomfortable with DD in a M/f setting (with the male as Top) but am compelled to say that it is fine as long as both parties are consenting. My knee-jerk reaction is still ‘urgh yuk’ though, because of the already existent power imbalances and possibility of ‘consenting’ to oppression. Those who claim that women *should* submit to men, whether for religious or pseudo-biological reasons, are simply sexist and wrong. DD is lifestyle CHOICE and is entered into on the basis of the needs of those within it. If it is not a choice then the notion of consent is farcical, and we are right back at oppression by the powerful of those with less power. In the case of my girlfriend and I, there are a number of reasons for me to be HoH and for her to be spanked. The first is that she has difficulty motivating and disciplining herself and needs help to do so. Things that she knows are good for her, like eating breakfast or going to bed at a reasonable hour, and things she puts off doing because they are unpleasant, she will do them if I tell her to do them and if she knows I will punish her if she doesn’t. The second is that at certain times (particularly if we argue) she starts to feel overwhelmed and out of control, panics and cannot function for some time. In these situation nothing I can say or do seems to help, except if I unambiguously take charge of the situation, thus relieving her of the responsibility to act until she has calmed down. The third is perhaps the strangest to me, but it makes her feel secure and cared for to have me looking out for her needs and willing to address them when she is unable to do so herself. For myself, well, I’ve always been bossy, so that works, and I thrive under responsibility (looking at my life, I’ve tended to be happiest when under huge pressure). I also find, bizarrely, that knowing there is one thing I have a great deal of influence over (my partner’s behaviour) helps combat feelings of powerlessness that otherwise can feed my tendency towards depression. It is also such a relief to have a structured way to deal with difficulties that otherwise might leave me feeling uncertain, unclear and insecure. (My girlfriend and I have joked that she always knows what to do but can’t bring herself to do it, whereas I often don’t know what to do but as soon as I do I get right on it, so together we make a functioning individual). These reasons for practising DD are COMPLETELY unrelated to gender, are individual and psychological. I once read in a DD book that although DD could be practised in any gender combination, the ‘dominant’ partner should be the one with the most male characteristics! You can imagine how I felt about *that*! ‘Active’, ‘dominant’ and ‘responsible’ are words to associate with masculinity apparently. Yuk. I’ll get back to my passive selfishness then.
Ok, that was less tuppence and more like £1.56 :-P
my wife spanks my bottom with her bathbrush when she sees that i am stressed usually over problems at his office. when i get home it is apprent in his attitude. knowing a stroke is forthcoming and on advise from my doctor, he is marched in to the bathroom, his bottom bared and over my knees given a real hard whipping. this procedure works.
i never thought that spanking would be effective for married couples until i read an article about consentual spanking used fot pinishment. we signed an agreement and occasionly use this method to clear the air. i was the first victim i had misbehaved at a party with another woman. driving home , i confessed to what i did and agreed to get spanked hard by her. she tanned by bottom with her bathbrush and i learned a lesson not to ever repeat that misdoing. later on she forgot to pay thr electric bill and a man came to shut off the [power’ after paying a penalty i spamked her bottom and she knew not to ever forget again. these prompt actions quickly get the problem solved and preserved our marriage
As Gwen Stefani would say…this S#!T is B-A-N-A-N-A-S!
I am a lifelong feminist with a Ph.D. in economics and a minor in women studies. I also choose to be submissive to my mate. I would take great offense if anyone suggested to me that I did not fully understand my true interests. The fact of the matter is I have such a strong personality that I have managed to run a lot of men off. I’ve certainly always had submissive sexual fantasies, but one day I read the Taken in Hand site. There are many different points of view expressed there and almost anyone who wants this lifestyle can find themselves in its pages. What I discovered was that submission was the missing cog of my personality. I didn’t know how to submit to anything, not God or country. Learning to do this with my husband was one of the most enlightening and thrilling experiences of my life. He could not believe I could trust him with something so deep and personal. I could not believe how liberating it was to let someone else be in charge. In our daily lives, we are equals, intellectually, emotionally, paying the bills. But we have made a certain agreement — how “real” or “pretend”it is no longer matters to me. I have promised to obey him when it comes to sex or any matter in which he feels overwhelmed by the strength or irrationality of my emotions or when I am “out of control”. The results? One, I have never wanted sex more. I have never wanted to say no to him. In fact, he can’t ask for enough of it anymore. I did NOT use to be like this before. The other result? When we fight and it gets out of control and I’m being a bitch, he puts a stop to it. He puts me over his knee and spanks me long and hard. This is our agreement. It hurts, it works and it turns me on. I love him deeply for being my strong man. He loves me deeply for trusting him so much. He is a kind and gentle soul. I have never been happier in my life. My advice is, if you spend a lot of your time feeling unsexy, bitchy and fighting with your mate, I don’t care what gender or sexuality you are, maybe you should sit down with your SO and decide who needs to be putting who over their knee. Release the stress, have some fun! You won’t regret letting some of your ego go. Egotism is the poison of our society and it is one of the downsides of feminism for women. It threatens to remove balance from our souls.
Just to add, I personally think any successful and meaningful romantic interaction can occur if both parties submit themselves to the other. Furthermore, Freud is having a party in the afterlife screaming, “I was right, I was right!” LOL
I would like to learned more about this topic domestic dicipline, Is there a web site that you can enter and read more about it?
To answer Patty’s question: If you just do a google search onthe phrase “domestic discipline” then it will return a whole bunch of hits you can explore. If you’re looking for a specifically Christian version, then google on “christian domestic discipline.” As I recall, Wikipedia also has an article on domestic discipline, with links.
If you’re looking for a marriage where the man is the dominant partner, and they both agree on his right to use physical coercion or physical discipline to enforce his wife’s obedience to his will, then the Taken In Hand website is by far the best resource. It’s not connected with the bible or Christianity or any religion at all, so people of various spiritual paths — as well as atheists and agnostics — can feel at home there. But it is strictly about masculine dominance within a committed heterosexual marriage; and not at all about mutual “discipline” or the man and wife “switching” roles.
(That’s not to say there is anything bad or wrong about those other preferences, but some of us do not find that personally attractive or appealing at all. Just as, I’m sure, many feminist lesbians would not find the enthusiastic affirmation of masculine leadership and male domination all that personally appealing to them. To me there is nothing sweeter or more erotic than a man’s forceful and loving domination of his worshipful wife. But to some people that would seem anything but sexy. Good thing there’s room in the world for everyone to seek out their own personal inclinations and preferences. Right?)
http://www.takeninhand.com
That is if we were ignorant enough to believe that leadership is simply a masculine trait…
Or if we were to believe that there is any such thing as masculine or feminine personality traits.
Y’know, not to make too great a mockery of the fallacy that “in order to be a couple someone has to be in charge and someone has to follow,” but I could extend that concept to the workplace.
Now, if only I can find an employer who understands the necessity of this concept and is willing to follow it up with the corporal discipline needed to make it effective. Then, with a female manager/supervisor in place it could be, “Oh, Ms. Davis, I’m sooooo sorry. Did I hand in those reports a day late. Oooh. What kind of punishment do you think I deserve?” I wonder if Ms. Davis will wear her leather to work?